Συμβουλές προς ιλλυροδίφες #1

Ξεκινώ αυτή τη σειρά αναρτήσεων με συμβουλές προς τους ιλλυροδίφες, επειδή αυτές τις ημέρες κάποιος σχολιαστής με ρωτάει για την πιθανή σχέση της Αλβανικής με την αρχαία «Ιλλυρική» γλώσσα. Μια τέτοια συζήτηση έχει νόημα μόνον αφού πρώτα ξεκαθαρίσουμε τι εννοούμε ως «Ιλλυρική» γλώσσα, γιατί η περιοχή που οι αρχαίοι χαρακτήριζαν ως «Ιλλυρία» ούτε είχε σαφή γεωγραφικά όρια, ούτε ήταν εθνογλωσσικά ομοιογενής.

Η παρούσα σειρά αναρτήσεων αποτελείται από 4 μέρη: #1 (το παρόν), #2, #3, #4.

Οι παλαιοβαλκανικές γλώσσες

Παρακάτω παραθέτω έναν χάρτη με την χονδρική κατανομή των παλαιοβαλκανικών γλωσσών στην εποχή του Στράβωνα (τέλη 1ου π.Χ. αιώνα).

Πολλοί θα συναντάτε για πρώτη φορά την Βρυγική γλώσσα (#9: τα πράσινα υπολείμματα της βαλκανικής Φρυγικής στον χάρτη) γύρω από την περιοχή των λιμνών (Πρέσπες, Οχρίδα/Λυχνιδός), αλλά το αρχαίο όνομα των Πρεσπών ήταν Βρυγηίδες λίμνες, ο Στράβων περιγράφει Βρύγες στην πόλη Κύδρα της Πελαγονίας και στην ενδοχώρα του Δυρραχίου και της Απολλωνίας, ο Αππιανός τους προσδιορίζει ως τους προγενέστερους κατοίκους του Δυρραχίου (πριν τους Ταυλαντίους, τους Λιβυρνούς και τους Κερκυραίους αποίκους), ο Ψευδο-Σκύμνος τους αναφέρει γύρω από τη Λυχνίτιδα λίμνη (Οχρίδα) ως γείτονες των Εγχελέων και, τέλος, στο επικό ποίημα Τηλεγονία η θεά Αθηνά και ο Οδυσσέας βοηθάνε τους Θεσπρωτούς να απωθήσουν μια επιδρομή των Βρυγών που με τη σειρά τους υποστηρίζονται από τον θεό Άρη.

Βρύγες στην Ιλλυρίδα (Δυρράχιο, Απολλωνία):

[Στράβων, Γεωγραφικά, 7.7.8] τῆς γὰρ Ἐπιδάμνου καὶ τῆς Ἀπολλωνίας μέχρι τῶν Κεραυνίων ὑπεροικοῦσι Βυλλίονές τε καὶ Ταυλάντιοι καὶ Παρθῖνοι καὶ Βρῦγοι […]

[Αππιανός, Εμφύλιοι πόλεμοι , 2.39]  αὐτὸς δ᾽ ὁ Πομπήιος τῶν ἀμφ᾽ αὑτὸν ἤδη τελῶν τὰ μὲν ἔδωκε τοῖς ὑπάτοις προαπάγειν ἐς Ἤπειρον ἐκ Βρεντεσίου, καὶ διέπλευσαν οἵδε αὐτίκα ἀσφαλῶς ἐς Δυρράχιον: ἣν Ἐπίδαμνόν τινες εἶναι νομίζουσι διὰ τοιάνδε ἄγνοιαν. […] χρόνῳ δὲ τῆς τε χώρας καὶ πόλεως κατασχεῖν Βρίγας ἐκ Φρυγῶν ἐπανελθόντας καὶ Ταυλαντίους ἐπ᾽ ἐκείνοις, Ἰλλυρικὸν ἔθνος, ἐπὶ δὲ τοῖς Ταυλαντίοις ἕτερον γένος Ἱλλυριῶν Λιβυρνούς […]

Βρύγες στην Πελαγονία:

[Στράβων, Γεωγραφικά, 7.7.9] πρότερον μὲν οὖν καὶ πόλεις ἦσαν ἐν τοῖς ἔθνεσι τούτοις: τρίπολις γοῦν ἡ Πελαγονία ἐλέγετο, ἧς καὶ Ἄζωρος ἦν, καὶ ἐπὶ τῷ Ἐρίγωνι πᾶσαι αἱ τῶν Δευριόπων πόλεις ᾤκηντο, ὧν τὸ Βρυάνιον καὶ Ἀλαλκομεναὶ καὶ Στύβαρα: Κύδραι δὲ Βρύγων, Αἰγίνιον δὲ Τυμφαίων, ὅμορον Αἰθικίᾳ καὶ Τρίκκῃ […]

Βρύγες γύρω από τη Λυχνίτιδα λίμνη (Οχρίδα):

Πάμε παρακάτω. Ο Noel Malcolm στη Σύντομη Ιστορία του Κοσόβου (1998) αφελώς νόμιζε ότι στο Κόσοβο συναντιούνταν «μόνο» δύο γλώσσες, η «Ιλλυρική» και η «Θρακική», και, συνεπώς, η Αλβανική πρέπει να κατάγεται από μία εκ των δύο (με παιδαριώδη επιχειρήματα προσπαθεί να δείξει την «Ιλλυρική» καταγωγή των Αλβανών):

We have now got back to the ninth century, but that still leaves seven centuries unaccounted for. The most direct way of bridging the gap with the Roman world would be for the historical linguists to demonstrate a link between Albanian and one of the ‘barbarian’ Balkan languages of the region – either Illyrian or Thracian.

Στην πραγματικότητα, η κατάσταση είναι περισσότερο περίπλοκη. Στην περιοχή της Δαρδανίας συναντιούνταν τέσσερα γλωσσικά συστήματα: τωόντι Ιλλυρική, Δαλματο-Παννονική, τωόντι Θρακική και Μυσική (υποδουνάβια Δακο-Μυσική) γλώσσα. Και σαν να μην έφτανε αυτό, οι Ρωμαίοι τον 1° μ.Χ. αι. επέτρεψαν δύο μαζικές μετεγκαταστάσεις περισσότερων από 150.000 «Υπερδουνάβιων» (Transdanubiani) Γετο-Δακών (ομιλητές της «Δακικής» = υπερδουνάβια Δακο-Μυσική) σε Άνω και Κάτω Μυσία (50.000 στα χρόνια του Αυγούστου και πάνω από 100.000 στα χρόνια του Νέρωνα, η Δαρδανία ήταν στην Άνω Μυσία).

Ο Radοslav Katičić περιγράφει την ανθρωπωνυμική κατάσταση της Δαρδανίας ως εξής: στην ανατολική Δαρδανία κυριαρχούν τα «Θρακικά» ονόματα και στην δυτική Δαρδανία ένα Δαλματο-Παννονικό επίστρωμα φαίνεται να προστέθηκε πάνω σε ένα τωόντι Ιλλυρικό υπόστρωμα, με τον Πτολεμαίο να τοποθετεί το Δακο-Μυσικό τοπωνύμιο Θερμίδαυα στην Δαλματία κοντά στη Σκόδρα (κάπου κοντά στα σημερινά σύνορα Αλβανίας και Κοσόβου).

Με την ευκαιρία, σημείωσα και το φρούριο «Χίννα/Κίννα» που βρισκόταν νοτίως του Βιρζιμινίου (Podgorica) επί του αρχαίου ποταμού Cinua, τον οποίο οι Μαυροβούνιοι αποκαλούν Cijevna (λόγω συγχύσεως με τον σλαβικό όρο *cěvĭ = «σωλήνας») και οι Αλβανοί Cem. Το αλβανικό όνομα προέρχεται από τον πρώιμο σλαβικό τύπο *Cěvĭna >Cevnë > Cemnë > Cemë > Cem (η εξέλιξη είναι όπως στο σλαβικό δάνειο drobĭnica > dromcë).

Ο Robert Elsie σε μια μελέτη του για τα υδρωνύμια της Αλβανίας (1994) γράφει για τον ποταμό Κίννα/Cinua/Cijevna/Cem:

Cem
SH, Mon. Tributary of the Moraçë (Morača) flowing into Lake Shkodër.
Ancient Cinua, Sinna (Tab. Peut), Anc. Gk. Kínna (Ptol. II 16, 7). The sound changes leading to
the Alb. form seem to presuppose Slavic influence. The Slavic name of the river is Cijevna, Cevna,
related to Serbcr. cijev ‘pipe.’
[cf. Weigand 1927, p. 242, Armao 1933, p. 161, Mayer 1957, p. 190-191, Popović 1957-1958, p.
305, 306, Popović 1960, p. 79, Katičić 1976, p. 186]

Και μιας και ανέφερα τον μακαρίτη Robert Elsie διαβάστε και αυτό το άρθρο του Elsie (2015) για την ιστορία της Αλβανίας κατά τον πρώιμο μεσαίωνα (600-1000) και την καταγωγή των Αλβανών.

Τι πρέπει να σας μείνει από όλα αυτά;

Όσοι ενδιαφέρεστε να συνδέσετε την Αλβανική με την «Ιλλυρική», πρώτα πρέπει να ξεκαθαρίσετε στο μυαλό σας ποια «Ιλλυρική» γλώσσα εννοείτε: την τωόντι Ιλλυρική (Αλβανία και Μαυροβούνιο) ή την Δαλματο-Παννονική (Δαλματία και Παννονία);

Όλοι οι σοβαροί μελετητές των λαών της Ιλλυρίας προειδοποιούν ότι μέχρι στιγμής δεν υπάρχει κάποια γλωσσολογικά εμβριθής ένδειξη ή απόδειξη της ομογλωσσίας Δαλματο-Παννονίων και τωόντι Ιλλυριών (Illyrii proprie dicti).

Στο βιβλίο του για την Παννονία και την Άνω Μυσία (1974) ο András Mócsy παραθέτει έναν γλωσσικό χάρτη της Ιλλυρίας με μια ενιαία «Ιλλυρική» γλώσσα (σλδ 64) για λόγους απλότητας. Ωστόσο, προηγουμένως στην σελίδα 4 εξηγεί πως ΔΕΝ θεωρεί τα Δαλματο-Παννονικά φύλα ως ομόγλωσσα των τωόντι Ιλλυριών νοτίων γειτόνων τους. Την ίδια επιφύλαξη εξέφρασαν και ο Radislav Katičić (1976) και πιο πρόσφατα ο Joachim Matzinger (2015). Σ΄αυτήν εδώ την ανάρτηση (ενότητα 2.4: «Ιλλυριοί» και τωόντι Ιλλυριοί) μπορείτε να δείτε τον χάρτη και την άποψη του Mócsy, καθώς και την άποψη του Matzinger. Στην παρούσα ανάρτηση θα προσθέσω την παρόμοια γνώμη του Radoslav Katičić:

Θα συνεχίσω στην επόμενη ανάρτηση.

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24 Comments

Filed under Βαλκανικές γλώσσες, Γλωσσολογία, Ινδοευρωπαϊκά θέματα, Μυθοθρυψία

24 responses to “Συμβουλές προς ιλλυροδίφες #1

    • andreagrampsi17

      The only ethnical group, definable as such, of peregrines, that is outstanding in Dacia, is that of the Illyrians. We can easily see how remarkable they are, in quantity, at least, by the big percentage of Illyrian names, all over Dacia and by the fact that this percentage has been obtained by excluding those from Alburnus Maior. As I have explained, this community is not fitted for statistics, but it is worth mentioning it, talking about the Illyrian peregrines of Dacia. Having the character of an alternative statistic, I have added Table IV, that shows the percentages of the peregrine names, with all the Illyrian names known to us included. Of course, the Illyrian names don’t offer us the certainty of the blood origins of the bearer, but it surely comes as a better and more secure clue than the Greek or – especially – Italic names. On the other side, we cannot know more details about the character’s background, as the names have similar structures and we could not tell if we are talking with any certainty about an -Illyrian* from Dalmatia or from Pannonia. Even so, we can state that some of the names appear to have their origins in on or another area of the Illyricum. So, names as Epicadus* or Verzo* can be considered as originated from – south-eastern Dalmatia*, while most of the other Illyrian names spread all over the Pannonia-Dalmatian. https://www.academia.edu/212907/The_peregrine_names_from_Dacia

    • andreagrampsi17

      The flexibility of Danijel Dzino :), what about the Delamatians, he just ignored them, neither cold neither hot 🙂

      • andreagrampsi17

        Before they were all ‘Illyroi’ than Natione Pannonia , Natione Delmatarum , Natione Dardaniae, and a little bit after ‘suddently’ all Illyriciani, i mean what was the ‘glue’ that sticked them together :)https://www.academia.edu/1806476/Pannonians_Identity-perceptions_from_the_late_Iron_Age_to_later_antiquity

  1. andreagrampsi17

    THE MOST FREQUENTLY ASKED QUESTIONS ABOUT THE ORIGIN OF ALBANIANS? ( Hi Gjitone, so let’s take for granted ‘at least for the sake of this discussion!!’ that *bʰrh₁ǵ- >*bʰórǵos > *bardza > bardhë, how could you explain the Messapian onomastic BARZIDIHI, or we should reject\discard it completely because Matzinger say’s that Messapian has no affiliation with modern Albanian ?! I am publishing the article where i found it, if you allow me obviously !! Also the case of *bʰrendos < *bʰr̥nos< *brina -d- from full-grade*g’hord- and Greek άχερδοσ ‘wild pear’ (Papazoglu 1978: 261). This name is definitely Illyrian and was spread all over Thrace during the migration of Dardani towards Minor Asia. It’s worth of mentioning the toponym Δαρδαπαρα, from IE *g’hera: cf. Alb. dardhë, ‘pear’ and IE. *bora, “pond, stream” (Georgiev, Izv.na Inst.za bulg.ezik 9 (1962). The etymology of this phitonym is bolstered by the fact that small wild pear-trees grow with some frequency in what must have been the southern portion of the Dardanian territory. Many Albanian place-names as Dardhë, Dardhishtë were thus conceived from the pear-trees. A very interesting case poses the name of sub-tribe of Dardanians, Galabroi (Strab. Geog. VII, 3.180. The second part of the name Γαλ-άβριοι (abrioi) is likely derived from *abhor (strong, mighty). This root *ab-/*ap (water, river) might be matched with alb. amë (river, water spring) through -bn-/-mn- mutation. Other likely etymologies is that of Dalmatia (=delme, sheep), Ulcinium (=ulk, wolf), etc.

    Are Albanians of Dacian origin?

    Scholarly attention was first piqued from an article of Bulgarian linguist, Vladimir I. Georgiev. He found the Illyrian hypothesis as unlikely for major place-names in modern Albania do not cohere with the phonetic rules of Albanian. In the heart of his arguments stand the assumption that Albanian might have been spoken in central Balkans. Georgiev assumed that Albanian might derive from a language which has presumably been spoken in the province of Mysia. He saw this region as being peopled by the Dacians and thus he conceived the term ‘Daco-Mysian’. Georgiev drew his point of departure on the fact that Albanian and Romanian share many phonetic commonalities which amount to a common cradle of both languages. Georgiev’s assumptions lack of any historical source for he appeared ill at ease with the fact that no major migration has been recorded in Albania from Dacia. The Bulgarian linguist stated that Dacian has been spoken in Dardania without further ado. His hypothesis would hold more sway if there were any historical source which speaks of any migration of Dacians towards modern Albanian lands. Later, this hypothesis was embraced by certain Romanian and Serbian scholars who tended to displace the origin of Albanians further north. The region of Carpathian mountains, Dacia Rispensis, Upper Mysia alike have been proposed as the early seats of proto-Albanians. The Dacian hypothesis is of gravest importance for the nationalist Romanian historiography. Most of Romanian scholars opt for the Dacian hypothesis in order to back up their immemorial presence in the region of Transylvania. According to this warped hypothesis, Albanians as lightly Romanized Dacians were branched off by the main body and thus dispersed into Byzantine-held territories, while the majority of Dacians who were profoundly Romanized remained in what is now Romania. However, this claim is hardly believable for all linguists consider that proto-Romanian has been spoken in south of Danube, most likely in a section of Dardania. The Albanian-speakers were numerically prevalent as they could profoundly affect the ancestors of modern-day Romanians.

    Does Albanian have any relation with Dacian?

    Dacian as other Paleo-Balkan languages is poorly known. From what is left is fairly difficult to obtain any far-reaching conclusion. Ancient writers considered it merely Thracian dialect. However, modern research has detached Dacian from genuine Thracian noting some peculiarities. Albanian etymologies have been proposed for certain Dacian place-names: ,,mal’’ (mountain), ,,abur(e)’’ (steam, vapour), ,,balta’’ (swamp), ,,balaur’’ (dragon, monster), etc. It must be remarked that the above-mentioned examples are not good basis to establish any strict connection between Albanian and Dacian. Most of the cited names are to be found in Illyrian likewise: ,,mal’’ (Maluntum, Dimallum, etc), Balta (Dalmatia), ‘Balaur’ (whose name recalls Bolouros, an Illyrian city), etc. It’s beyond any cavil that Romanian has borrowed hundreds of words from Albanian. The attempts of some scholars to assume these common words as being derived from the so-called Dacian are outright futile. One should not fail to remark that linguistic similarity between Albanian (Illyrian) and Romanian is better explained by contact rather than an arbitrary mutual ethnic origin. Many words ascribed as Dacian are nothing else but Illyrian. This gives some room to surmise that Illyrian exerted some influence over Dacian mostly in Roman period, when a number of Illyrian tribes were settled in southern Dacia.

    Illyrian language vanished during roman period?

    The proponents of Dacian origin of Albanians point out that Illyrian has ceased from being spoken in late antiquity. There is not a iota of evidence which would indicate that Illyrian was entirely replaced by Latin. It’s beyond any doubt that certain Illyrian communities were profusely assimilated: this alienation was most poignant in coastal cities as well as in cross-road regions. The claim of profound Romanization of Illyrians is ultimately invalidated by the case of Dardani (Δάρδανοι). While Roman authority showed its first signs of decay, a separate province of Dardania was created in the fourth century A.D as a result of the growth of Dardania independence. At the very same time, the indigenous Illyrian populace of Dardania reasserted its distinct identity which is evidenced by the absence of Roman elements. Papazoglu in her incisive work regarding Dardanians, held that Dardania was the least Romanized province all over Balkans. There are numerous sources which indicate that indigenous idioms continued to be spoken even during V-VII centuries. Thus St. Jerome referred to Illyrian-speakers in Dalmatia or Pannonia in the fifth century. There were only scattered pockets of speakers of old languages, mostly in mountainous regions. When tackling all sources, it seems very feasible that Albanian is the most recent phase of old Illyrian.

    Albanian language lacks maritime terminology?

    This is one of the most repeated arguments of those who rule out the Illyrian origin of Albanian. It was Gustav Weigand, who averred for the first time the so-called absence of original maritime terminology. According to him, most of nautical terms in Albanian are borrowed either from Latin or Slavic. The absence of original words relating to sea infers that proto-Albanians have lived far away from Adriatic, most likely in a territory with Dacian preponderance. Nonetheless, this argument proves little to nothing that Albanians lived far away from Adriatic. It must be emphasized that the long supremacy of Greek colonies through Adriatic and Ionian has affected to a certain scale the Illyrian maritime terminology. The same goes also for the Roman period when Illyrians were prohibited from utilizing their sea. It would be a bit of a stretch to assume that Albanian has no original nautical vocabulary. Yet Albanian contain a certain maritime and nautical terms that are basically indigenous on the ground they have no parallels to the neighboring languages. One is tempted to mention a handful words, such as: anije (ship), guaskë (cockle, shell), ngjalë (eel), etc. At the same token, even the Scandinavin languages contain a range of commercial and nautical terms from Low German, which date from the supremacy of Hanseatic cities in the late Middle Ages. Another possibility is that local Illyrian population was propelled to shelter in the more mountainous regions and led a pastoral way of life which might have greatly reduced its maritime vocabulary. Even if the Dacian scenario was true – where allegedly nomadic tribes pushed gradually in south – it is hardly possible that proto-Albanian had not nautical terms of its own (terms for rivers and lakes). It does seem quite unlikely that proto-Albanians were quite unfamiliar with rivers and lakes, so they need to borrow such elementary words from other languages. Historical sources as well as archaeological findings have proved quite convincingly that Illyrians were a skilled sea-faring people. Thus the Liburni tribe maintain its ascendancy over Adriatic for some centuries until their domination came to an end once the Greek colonization has commenced. The Illyrian supremacy was reasserted when the Illyrian state headed by the king Agron, became the most powerful naval force in Adriatic. The Dacian scenario does not offer a satisfactorily answer on how some wandering pastoral tribes succeed on subjugation of certain well-established Greek colonies, Roman cities and numerous Illyrian tribes who used to live in modern Albania. Such a hypothetical event did never happen because in all probability the Albanians were one of the indigenous Illyrian tribes.

    Albanians are mentioned very lately?

    This is another inconclusive argument which has been deployed very often. The Illyrians were last mentioned as such in Miracula Sancti Demetri (7th century AD), after which there is no other record of the name. Whereas Albanians as a distinguishable ethnic group are mentioned in a concise manner in 1000-1018 by an anonymous author in a Bulgarian text. Known as Arbanasi, they are described as “half-believers” – a reference most likely to their non-Orthodox adherence. The Byzantine historian, Michael Attaliates mentioned twice Αλβανοι as participants on a revolt against Constandiople and of the Arbanitai as subjects of the theme of Dyrachium. The late mentioning of Albanians has no relevance in the defining their ethnogenesis. If Albanians went unmentioned for some centuries (as it does seem at the first blush), this in no way suggests that they were not present into their historical areas. Indeed the period spanning from VIIth century down to IVth has a few sources. The Eastern Roman Empire, during this period, was wrought by civil wars and external enemies. It would follow as logical conclusion that a population in the western fringe of the empire which was fully integrated within Empire, did not attract any specific mention. Indeed the absence of the name of Albanians is best explained by the fact that no such distinction was necessary during this period. With the collapse of the Roman Empire and the Slav invasions both Latin and Illyrian speakers would have retreated to the hills and obscurity. Focus was mostly shifted towards the external invaders, like the Slavs who established their separate and independent political entities (zupanije) within Byzantine territory. There was no interest in conducting an ethnocultural study of its own citizens. At least not as far as we know, Albania was a part of the Byzantine Empire, from whence the empire drew recruits for the army, officers, generals, clergies, emperors even. And the population was Orthodox – Orthodox crucifixes have been found even in Mirditë, the heartland of Albanian Catholicism. What became different in the 1000s AD? Whatever the reasons for it, whether the interruption came as a natural result of the changed political climate after the Slav invasions, the Albanians of Άρβανον roughly corresponding to the Mati region of today, received a certain political autonomy. During this period, the Albanians started to manouvre independently from Constantinople, and thus a reason to actually describe the Albanians as a separate entity,”disloyal” to Byzantium, was born. Prior to that, an Orthodox population which was integrated within the Byzantine Empire was not so important to write about as it became later, when they started to win greater autonomy from Byzantium and become a political factor to be reckoned with.

    Albanian has few ancient Greek borrowings?

    The meagerness of written Albanian has greatly hampered the progress of revealing the relation between ancient Greek and Albanian. The claim that Albanian has exceedingly few borrowings from Doric Greek is altogether groundless. The proponents of this claim have argued that proto-Albanian has been spoken in a region which was less tarnished by the Greek influence of coastal colonies. They firmly precluded the possibility that Albanians have occupied from the onset the coastal Albania. However, detailed investigations have shown that Albanian has heaps of Doric borrowings which may be contextualized on the pre-Roman period when indigenous Illyrian population had intense contacts with Doric colonies. One is tempted to mention a couple of significant examples like: mokën ”millstone, grindstone” < machana (Ionian-Attic mechane); drapën ‘sickle’ < *drapanon; mollë ‘apple’ < malon. Its very plausible that such loans penetrated into the Illyrian language through the early Corinthian colonies of the seventh to fourth centuries B.C, along the Ioanian and Adriatic coastline. The number of loans may be way larger than that because other loans may well have been masked by an absorption into Albanian phonology. In this case it would be extremely difficult to distinguish genetic cognates from loans (Bernal 2006: 178). Some other startling lexical concordances are also: κάρυα (Hesychius: κάρουα Λάκωνες) may be well compared with alb. ,, gharré ” (walnut); τανί ,,at this time” (described as Doric by Hesychius; attic. τηνικάδε) with Alb. adverb ”tani” (now). κᾶπος ,,garden” (Ionic-Attic form being κῆπος) with alb. kopsht (which in turn derive from < PAlb. *kāp-isht-), regarded by many as phonetic and semantic reminiscence; the Doric personal pronoun αuς ”he” (Hesychius: «αυς, γενική αυτός. Κρήτες και Λάκωνες») is persuasively linked with alb. ai, ay in nominative. Actually there are only few studies which meddle extensively with the relation between ancient Greek and Albanian. Many scholars have pointed out that northern dialects of ancient Greek are fraught with several Illyrians loans. The Illyrian influence over Greek is attributed to the X-IXth century B.C where Illyrian migration swamped all over Greece. Such a migration is best evinced by certain place-names which are recognizably Illyrian. Thus, John Wilkes is mildly supportive to the view that Illyrian has exerted some noticeable influence over Greek for he held that “the linguistic evidence for Illyrians in Greece, Asia Minor and Italy is yet to be interpreted” (1995:39). Some startling examples which seem to wholly confirm the idea that Illyrians crept in midst of Greece, are: the Illyrian tribe of Μεσσάπιοι is found in Locris, Boeotia, Laconia, Aetolia, Elis and even in Crete and Caria; the name of Aphrodite at Syracuse, according to Hesychius, was βαιῶτις which is generally regarded as Illyrian. Kretchmer opined that tribal name of Βοιωτός was of Illyrian origin. He took his point of departure on the Illyrian personal name Boios. The attention of various linguists has been captivated by the analogy of Gr. γυναιχί (woman) with gunakhai (Messapic dative, gun-akhai). A. Mayer went even further and suggested that gunakhai was a purely Illyrian form, a dat. from IE. *gunakoi. It must be emphasized that Dorians might have been Illyrian as the very ancient seat of them resided within Illyrian territory before they shifted in the general movement which took place ever since XIIth century B.C. The origin of Dorians still remain cloaked in mystery. Some references on Herdotus reckoning them as Hellenes must be dismantled altogether (1.56.2: Ἑλληνικὸν ἔθνος; VI, 53: ). Herodotus sought to convince his audience that Dorians took later this name probably during their coming in Peloponnesus, but he did not clarify their collective name (1.56.3: ἐς Πελοπόννησον ἐλθὸν Δωρικὸν ἐκλήθη.) There are multitude of accounts describing fairly well the northerly origin of Dorians. One of the chief Doric tribes – Hylleans – was decidedly Illyrian (Steph. Byz. Ὑλλεῖς, ἔθνος Ἰλλυρικόν). Another consideration which has gone essentially unmentioned is Kretchmer’s suggestion who identifies Dorians with the Douriopes, a Macedonian people inhabiting the territory around the towns of Krushevo and Prilep (cities in modern Macedonia). While modern Greek scholar, Sakalleriu goes one step further and pairs Dryopes with Derriopes: “The Dryopes, a section of whom remained in the valley of the Erigon (Crna) and survived into the historical period, when they were known by the name Derriopes, or Deuriopes or Douriopes: Dry-, Derr-, Deur- and Dour- are all the evolved form or rendering of the same root, the original meaning of which was ‘tree’ and which later came to mean oak tree”. It seems fairly probable that a powerful stream of Dorians seized from some centuries Pindus mountains. This might well have been the very reservoir of highlander Illyrian tribes (i.e Dorian) which gave infusion to the later Macedonians. Hermann Bengtson concedes that “The Dorians were intermingled with the Illyrian elements, which incidentally also reappear among the Macedonians and the Thracians“. Those tribes who later were indiscriminately regarded as Dorians overlaid the previous populations in Peloponnesus and held under their sway. Ever since, the Dorian tribes underwent a conspicuous process of Hellenization. Thus Herodotus attributed to Cleisthenes, then the tyrant of Sycon, the deliberate attempt to change the ending names of certain Doric tribes which constituted the population of Sycon. The population of Sicyon evidently had a Dorian element which was divided into three tribes: Hylleis, Pamphyli and Dymanatae. Cleisthenes carried out a change on the tribal composition of city because he was well-aware of some ethnic antagonism (Herodotus V.68: ἵνα δὴ μὴ αἱ αὐταὶ ἔωσι τοῖσι Σικυωνίοισι καὶ τοῖσι Ἀργείοισι). Once they settled in Pelepponesuss, Dorians left off speaking their language. Their language, as Strabo observed, virtually blotted out as they were no longer part of the same tribe (Strab. VIII, 1,2: παρατρέψαι τὴν γλῶτταν καὶ τὰ ἄλλα ἔθη πρὸς τὸ μὴ ὁμογενές, ὁμογενεῖς πρότερον ὄντας). While its hard to gauge the true extent of this alienation, it’s evidently clear that the ruling aristocracy of Dorians was willing to adopt certain genealogies, and one of them sought to link with Egyptians (Herod. VI, 53: Δωριέων ἡγεμόνες Αἰγύπτιοι ἰθαγενέες). It’s still questionable if such genalogies swept away all the differences which were conceivable between Dorians and neighboring populations. This persistence to not perceive Dorians as being of the same stock was emphasized in many cases. Thus, Cleomenes felt the need to forge his own origin because Dorians were strictly prohibited from entering to the Achaian temples on the grounds they were foreigners (Herod. I.56: «ὦ γύναι, ἀλλ᾽ οὐ Δωριεύς εἰμι ἀλλ᾽ Ἀχαιός.»). Some distinct Dorian cultural forms (such as dress) were noticeable even in the time of Herodotus (V, 87.3: τῶν Ἀθηναίων γυναῖκες ἐσθῆτα Δωρίδα). It would not be amiss to surmise that primeval Dorians were responsible for the spread of numerous Illyrian place-names across Greece and the existing languages were heavy outmuscled by Illyrian.

    • Hi Andrea, are you asking me to answer in each of the questions that you have posted or not?

      • andreagrampsi17

        No i do not want to bother, that is not my intention !! I have published some articles just to read them, i commented some, but they weren’t no questions .In This case there is a specific question Barzidih & Brention ?? Thanks and Sorry .

      • Ok, γείτονα, just tell me what do you want me to answer, and I’ll answer it.

      • andreagrampsi17

        The second one is in Croatia !! And If Barzidih=Bardyllis can this clarify the dz > d ??

      • The question about the /z/ of Barzidihi is the same topic with the alternation zi/gi in Birziminium (Podgorica) and Berginium (further NE in Dalmatia).

        As long as we can’t tell if Messapic is centum or satem we may be dealing with a Phrygian-like feature of secondary palatalization before /i/,/e/.

        Phrygian is Centum (cf. PN *g’onh1- > Bena-gonos), but before /i/,/e/ (like Late Latin) it underwent the palatalization gi>dzi, ki>tsi.

        Would you like a page with the relevant description?

      • andreagrampsi17

        My assumption that probably the dz> d occured in a more early stage ??

      • The date of the Albanian deaffrication ([g’>]dz>d, [k’>]ts>th) needs more solid evidence than the purely hypothetical etymology of Dardania from *g’hord- > *dzard- > dardhë. Only when we’ll have some solid etymological evidence (be it Illyrian or Thracian or whatever) for this deaffrication can we say that it had occured so early (as in the early 4rth ce BC name Bardyllis). Remember that Vlach preserves the affricate /dz/ in bardzu till today and Romanian preserved it until the 17th ce, and then deaffricated it in dz>z (barză).

        The same holds for IE *weg’h- > PAlb *wedza > wjed(h)ull = early Romanian viedzure = modern viezure and IE *meh2g’- > Palb *mādz- > Alb modhull = Vlach madzãre = Romanian mazăre

      • andreagrampsi17

        Anyway sorry man, good night.

    • andreagrampsi17

      *Also the case of *bʰrendos < *bʰr̥nos< *brina -d- from full-grade*g’hord- and Greek άχερδοσ ‘wild pear’ (Papazoglu 1978: 261). This name is definitely Illyrian and was spread all over Thrace during the migration of Dardani towards Minor Asia.

      • This name is definitely Illyrian and was spread all over Thrace during the migration of Dardani towards Minor Asia.

        How do you know that it is “definitely” only illyrian, when it does not appear in the Illyrian territories, but in Messapian glosses and in the Thracian toponyms Brendike and Brentopara (and possibly in the Romanian substratal phytonym brândușă)?

        Most of what you’ve written is … wishfull thinking.

        Wait for my next posts to see how naive (and linguistically wrong) it is to claim for example that the toponym Delmatia/Dalmatia comes from Gheg Albanian delmë = ‘sheep’.

      • andreagrampsi17

        Also the case of *bʰrendos < *bʰr̥nos< *brina< Bri\Brin, as an plausible explanation for the Toponyms 1- Brindisi (Brundisium- Βρεντεσιον ), 2 – Brač ( Brettia-Brentista- for the ancient Greeks 'Elaphusa\Ελαφούσα ' ) ??

      • Andrea,

        1) Brindisi is certainly from the Messapian *brenda = “deer’s head” (the ancient authors tell us so it is certain)

        2) Brač/Brettia/Elaphousa: Given the Greek name, it is highly probable that we-re dealing with a term from IE *bhentos/*bhrendos “deer, stag” like Brisndisi. I can’t tell you though if it is Liburnian (East Venetic) or Dalmatian.

        Other?

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